The Art of Work / Life Harmony and the Importance of Exercise with Gary Jubelin

In this episode of me&my health up, we go behind the scenes of a legendary homicide detective’s life - Gary Jubelin and discuss:

• What it is like being a detective 
• The art of work/life harmony and the importance of doing a job you love
• How exercise is key to performing in high-pressure jobs
• Discovering harmony and balance between the different types of exercise
• The importance of self-care
• Gary’s life lessons and keys to a successful career
• What makes a successful leader
• How the combination of work and health can enhance teamwork and performance

Gary Jubelin’s bio (Source: The Fordham Company)

Gary Jubelin has been credited with solving some of the nation’s most horrific crimes.

He retired in 2019 with the rank of Detective Chief Inspector after a 34-year career with the NSW Police Force. During a career that earned him high commendations for policing, he performed duties from covering generalist detective duties to major crime.

These include experience in the Armed Hold-Up Squad, Organised Crime Squad, Gangs Squad, Unsolved Homicide, and Homicide Squad. He specialised in the field of homicide investigation for 25 years up until his retirement.

As a homicide detective, Gary Jubelin led some of the largest, most complex, high-profile investigations in New South Wales.

The direction of the investigations, operational decisions, community safety, the arrest and conviction offenders were his mainstream responsibilities.

These included gangland killings, serial murderers, sexually motivated murders, domestic murders, child killers, revenge murders, murderers who tortured their victims, random murders, police shootings, abductions, and serial rapists.

Gary Jubelin has been a key figure in solving major crimes for the past three decades gathering a mountain of information based on the methodical and successful processes he employed as a crime investigator.

Links to Resources mentioned

Gary’s Autobiography: I Catch Killers: The Life and Many Deaths of a Homicide Detective

Gary’s Podcast show: I Catch Killers with Gary Jubeli‪n

About me&my Health Up & Host

me&my Health Up seeks to enhance and enlighten the wellbeing of others. Host Anthony Hartcher is the CEO of

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Any information, advice, opinions or statements within it do not constitute medical, health care or other professional advice, and are provided for general information purposes only. All care is taken in the preparation of the information in this Podcast. [Connected Wellness Pty Ltd] operating under the brand of “me&my health up”..click here for more

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Transcript

Anthony Hartcher 0:00
Welcome to another insightful episode of Me&My health up with your host Anthony Hartcher. A healthy man according to my kids, aka clinical nutritionist and lifestyle medicine specialists.

The purpose of this podcast is to enhance and enlighten your well being, and today we'll be chatting with Gary Jubelin on work life harmony with a particular focus on mental health.

Gary Jubelin is known as a legendary homicide detective and has been accredited with solving some of the nation's most horrific crimes. My mom says he is a hero because of his dedication to keeping Australia safe, and I thoroughly agree. He retired in 2019 with the rank of Detective Chief Inspector after a 34 year career with the New South Wales Police Force.

During our career, he earned himself high recommendations for policing. He performed duties from covering generalist detective duties to solving major crimes. These include experiences in Armed holed up squad, Organized Crime Squad, Gang squad, Unsolved Homicide, and Homicide squad.

He specialized in the field of homicide investigation for up to 25 years until his retirement. As a homicide detective, Gary led some of the largest most complex high profile investigations in New South Wales.

These included gangland killings, serial murders, sexually motivated murders, domestic murders, child killers, revenge murderers, murderers who tortured their victims, random murders, police shootings, abductions, and serial rapists. Gary has written an autobiography and hosted a podcast called I catch criminals. Outside of his work, Gary enjoys martial arts, Chignon, Meditation, surfing, yoga, boxing, and riding motorbikes.

Welcome, Gary, how are you today?

Gary Jubelin 2:02
Good, anything good. So thanks for having me on your show.

Anthony Hartcher 2:05
Oh, you're welcome as an absolute delight to have you on your show and I'm looking forward to you sharing all your wisdom around physical and mental health with our listeners, but yeah, before we commence, there's a general question. I always ask my guests and it's around just sharing your story as to what inspired you shaped you to be the incredible person you are today?

Gary Jubelin 2:29
Well, I'll just clarify. I'm not sure how incredible I am. I try hard. That might be a better way of describing me, but life's Funny, isn't it because it takes different paths, and I grew up and I never envisaged that I'd be a police officer. It wasn't something that really crossed the radar, and I was more into Yeah, as a young boy growing up playing sport.

Surfing was a passion of mine in the early years, and just having a good time but that changed in my early 20s. I was in the building trade and I enjoyed the building trade. It was hard work and anyone that sort of winges about placing, I invite them to spend a couple of days straight on a jackhammer and see where we're placing that bet.

But in the early 20s, I joined, joined placing I've talked about this before and there wasn't any noble reason I joined I was actually on a building site having lunch and I saw some cops chasing the bad guy down the street, and the full on Sprint and I thought that was quite fun. I applied the next day.

When I got into the placing I just found that fit me like a glove. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the interaction that you had with people, I enjoyed the challenges and the excitement. So that's sort of taken me on a path and then fell I won't say fell into homicide. That's what I wanted to do but my career there and the police certainly shaped me as the person that I am today at whether that's for the better or worse. I'm not sure, but I think you know if and I say this to my children, and I say up to anyone that if you can find something you're passionate about making a career out of it.

You've got a path the life ticked off as you pointed in the right direction and that's what I found with placing that was something that I enjoyed something that you know, and others might debate this, but I had the skill set that suited that profession and I enjoyed myself.

Yeah, they certainly could tell that you really enjoy it and were very passionate about your field of work because the amount of dedication you put into it shows that passion and how much you cared for what you're doing the job at hand and protecting the citizens of Australia.

Anthony Hartcher 4:49
So, you know, really hats off to you for that, that dedication you've served and given and, you know, I've got so much respect for what you've done. So, I also relate to that, that passion you shared, because it's something that I discovered later on in life. So I was working in a corporate career and, and was feeling unfulfilled, and, and it was at that point, I thought, now I don't want to continue, you know, working when you spend so much of your life, doing work, doing something that I don't enjoy, and so I, I went with my passion, which was health and wellness and helping others. So yeah, I totally can.

Unknown Speaker 5:32
If you get up and you're looking forward to going to work, it's a good way to start the day, isn't it and I genuinely feel for people that they're trapped, or when I say trapped, everyone's got a choice but caught up in jobs or careers that they're not finding fulfilling, and I was at the point. Yeah, I didn't know whether I was working or not working. I was just working 24/7, but it worked for me, and I enjoyed it.

Gary Jubelin 6:00
Really, I'm personally intrigued, and I'm sure the listeners are, as to what it's like working as a detective, you know, you just mentioned that word 24/7, and, you know, I perceive it would be like that, you know, given that, you know, such a horrific crime happens. And everyone's uneasy about this criminal still being at large and you know, you have the whole responsibility of all the citizens to get these criminals behind bars as quickly as possible and so I'm really keen for you to share, like, what is a particular day or some moments that really stood out the most for you, throughout your career.

Unknown Speaker 6:39
There's one particular job that spanned sort of the 10 years, it was the murder of Terry Falconer. There's no organized crime job that I was working on that for a long time, obviously, it was 10 years before we took out the bad guys with that.

Gary Jubelin 6:57
That particular investigation was all consuming at certain points, not for the whole 10 years, but certain points when we were really, you know, stirring up organized crime and, yeah, there were people killed, whilst we were targeting these people. So it was the pressure was on we had to bring some resolution to it.

So when I say 24/7, there was nothing for the phone to ring at two o'clock in the morning, and you have to deal with a situation or make a decision and some of them without exaggerating were, yeah, life threatening decisions and you have to make the decision that in the middle of the night, or whenever you're confronted with that, that problem.

So if I tried to pigeonhole hold it, I'm at work, and now I'm at home, it just wouldn't work. So I had to change my mind thinking in that, okay, this is what I do. I'm a homicide detective. I live and breathe that job. I owe that to the victims and the victim's families to work that way.

People might say that, but that's an obsessive traitor, or whatever. If you enjoy the work that you do, and you believe in the work that you do, I wasn't confronted by it. Like I could be working on the weekend and yeah, even though my but on the roster on my off, that I might be checking through the brief or doing things, but that's what you had to do and I the thing about a homicide investigation, I say this to a lot of people within the place when I was in the place, and I say now that if you're not prepared to bleed for the job, but maybe that's not the right area, because homicide investigation is not nine to five and if you think it's going to be nine to five, and you're not going to have to make sacrifices, you're mistaken, and if you don't make any sacrifices, you're not doing justice for the victim's family.

Yeah, it's, and I think what, you know, you've really touched on a key point here is with technology, it's really bored about work is, you know, coming in beyond that nine to five into people's lives, and they have to manage their own boundaries and you know, find some sort of point, as you said, it, it's immersed into it was into one area, in a sense, and but you got to be able to dance or go with this flow and find some harmony amongst that work life balance.

Unknown Speaker 9:26
I think that's right, you can't find it. Like if I was sitting at home going Dammit, this my day off, why am I dealing with this? That wouldn't have been beneficial to me, it would have made me angry, and it would have caused problems. I had an I think a good bounce back in that. I could be down and out and feel like I just can't take this anymore, but I could you know, within 24 hours, be fresh and ready to go, and yeah, so I had that resilience that bounce back and I don't know what contributed to that.

Gary Jubelin 10:02
But for me, I had that, so no matter how beaten down the job became for me, I could bounce back and that might just be half an hour, check myself go for a run, or go do something, but I couldn't bounce back.

And that's a key point you've touched on, which I really like to explore a bit further, are you've always prioritized your health, regardless of what's going on, you know, your 24/7 job that was, you know, always pressuring you, and as you said, you know, you're totally human, you have these down days where things aren't going well, but you're able to pick yourself up and you mentioned this inbuilt resilience.

Anthony Hartcher 10:38
Yeah, it's something that I think you have, you know, without realizing, probably consciously, that you've created for yourself, which, which I'm really keen for you to share with the listeners, what's your view on health?

And how do you make it a priority in terms of all these other commitments you have, because I'm sure this will be really useful for the listeners to hear as to how they can make health a priority, and particularly with us returning, you know, back to this sort of more normality. With the vaccine rolled out, people are going back to this sort of faster paced life, this rat race, and health seems to be dropping off again.

So I'm really keen for you to give us some inspiration as to your views on health and how it served you to be the best you can be at your whatever you're doing.

Unknown Speaker 11:29
Okay, well, when I was a young bloke, I didn't really concentrate on physical training, because you're always running around or surfing or is playing soccer, I was doing whatever. So you didn't really have to make a conscious decision to maintain your health. Oh, I wish to be that way. Yeah, you'd get an injury and sprain your ankle and swell up overnight and by the morning, you're up and running on it again but that was the beauty of youth.

Gary Jubelin 11:55
When I joined the police, down the academy in the days when i i joined in 1985. It was they went out that it physically and I loved I'm thinking what you get paid for this like we're running upstairs and someone's throwing up and they're making the person do push ups over where they've just thrown up. Yeah, in this day and age, it wouldn't be allowed, obviously, but that was that sort of got my interesting fitness and then when I joined the place, you're on a lot of ship work. So as in uniform, you'd be working seven nights straight.

So your circle of friends, change, not your circle of friends at your access to your friends. So I had a lot of time, during the day during the middle of the day, and I trained and I trained each day and I got into a habit of training and I've maintained that all the way through.

No matter what you throw at me during the day, if I've got a training session in the morning, I think I'm ready for where I get pissed off is when I haven't trained in the morning and I've made some excuse why I didn't try and I get tied up with work. And then the end of the day, I feel like I've let myself down.

So my training was my time that was where I recharge and I felt good about myself. I felt that I had the energy and certainly, I looked for that when I was involved in homicide investigations because sometimes you would work for days straight, and I think the longest I've worked was something like 38 hours or maybe more and you're awake, constantly making big decisions.

I noticed the people that kept themselves fit had that they didn't break down and I thought that was an important trait. I also trained at work, I made a point of training at work and people would sort of look at me strange where I'd grab my gym gear and go to the gym at the police station or go to the police boys club and I could always find someone that wanted to try and that was the beauty of police.

Some bosses frowned on it and some people said, No, you're at work, you shouldn't be training and it's usually the people that you see go have 20 cups of coffee a day or a smoke and they're the ones that find that offensive that you take half an hour to train. And so I sort of ignored that and just trained and in fact, some of the police stations are worked out or areas or work that people wonder where I wasn't they'd say eyes in his happy place and that was the gym.

But do it doing that helped me the type of training I did, I started out hard training. So I'm going to run further. I'm going to run faster. I'm going to lift heavier weights and all that I got and I think sort of mid to late 20s Very, very fit extremely fit, but not healthy. And by that, I meant I could walk past someone that had a sniffle and I'd catch a cold and be bedridden.

So in my attitude, I just put on three or four tracksuits and go for a run while I've got the flu and it would help me initially but my immune system just went yeah, that would cure that initial dose of the flu but my immune system just suffered and I couldn't understand that then I found that martial arts and through the martial arts, and that was the kickboxing and Kung Fu that I started off with initially and I'd see people that could do things physically like couldn't do and that sort of, I'm looking and thinking how I lift heavy weights, I but you know, run this far do this and do that.

But you can just smash me and that's where I found that a sifu was started and some of the instructors said, Well, maybe you got to consider soft training and I'm sort of looking at it as most, most young blokes and women might look at it, I'm not gonna waste my time sitting there, chanting or stretching all that but I was convinced and that led me down the path of the importance of stretching, which is, yeah, I still to this day, I talk about not doing enough and I know that injuries are a result of me not, not stretching, but also a thing called Qigong and to Qigong, not many people knew about, so we're talking so that 25 years or so ago, and that it's like a moving form of meditation, not dissimilar to what people identify Tai Chi is.

And what I found with that is that not only did I become fitter, by balancing my training out, I also became healthier and healthier that my immune system wasn't bacillus, and, you know, catching colds every second week and that really, really helped me, and another thing that I learned also, and this is, you know, you're experimenting on your own body, basically, where I'd have a particularly intense period at work. So I'd flogged myself, and this is when I was in the fitness stage before I've learned the benefits of soft training.

I'd have a holiday or have a week off and I think, yes, that last, no work, have a holiday off guarantee. Day one, I would come down with the flu and I think it's just my body's way of being so tight, so intense, and then relaxing for the holiday and I let myself go, and I catch the flu and they're like, get spend the week with the flu and then and I'm talking man flu, like, it's a serious, serious type of flu.

Unknown Speaker 17:18
A week pissed off, I've got a sore throat, I'm not feeling good. I'm not enjoying my holiday and then I'd come back to work and that cycle just repeated itself and repeated itself, but once I learned the benefit of soft training, it just opened my eyes to so many different different ways of approaching health and fitness lifestyle.

Gary Jubelin 17:38
Yeah, I really liked how you, you know, you went on this self discovery journey of you know, it was all hard and I think, you know, were brought up in that era where it was all about to go hard or go home. You know, if you weren't going hard, you weren't training where you if you weren't for the day, if you didn't, as you said, you know, like, it's typically like your first experience when you're on at the police academy was, you know, just vomiting, but you still got to keep going.

Unknown Speaker 18:05
And I like that I thought yeah, this is failing. My worries, Let's be tough, guys, but and it's funny because I, through martial arts, I got into boxing and different things and yeah, hang around with tough guys and they'd be sort of looking at me. Yeah, and what are you doing your weirdo? Yeah, like I was sitting there meditating or doing Qigong and it's funny how it's become acceptable. Yeah, like, you see Special Forces, guys. Yeah, that they're into their meditation.

Unknown Speaker 18:35
You see, the football was at the yoga class and you know, 10/15 years ago, people would laugh and go, What are these footballers doing that the yoga class, but I was fortunate through circumstances got ahead of the curve and it really made me understand my body, like, I would listen to my body, and I would listen.

Gary Jubelin 18:54
Whereas if I was frustrated and angry, the myself would say stuff, like, I'm going to go for a run, or I'm going to go boxing or something like that, but the people that were guiding me, the people that I was learning under would say, Well, how about your instinct is to go for a run, the best thing you could do right now is sit down and meditate, and, and it's funny with meditation, people think it's as simple as I can grab someone off the street, put them in a room and say, Okay, we're going to meditate and you're going to be able to sit there and feel all zen like and relax.

That's not the case at all. It's like preparing for a marathon, you've got to do the training, you've got to you've got a little step and like meditation doesn't or didn't come easy to me. I'd be sitting in the class and I'd be my mind would be wandering and I'd be getting angry and getting agitated and sitting in an uncomfortable position, and Sifi would be saying just let it go breathe and all that I'm seeing again, you have no idea how so my knees or whatever but gradually you learn that you could do that. And just with the simple process of breathing, that was a lot of the type of training I did breathing the next very current now people are understanding the benefits of just, you know, inhaling, exhaling and just getting that rhythm and relaxation.

So with all that I and I trained under a lot of different people on different experiences. And the one thing I had to check myself with Qigong, I got so into it, that I would in the morning, I'd do my training, but also do Qigong and in the evening, I do Qigong, but then when life got busy, on the net, frustrated, I've got, but I've got to do my half hour of juggle, and I've got to do my training and then I'm thinking, this is causing me more stress and it's meant to fit, you know, this is meant to relax, relax me but that became I just, I lost the purpose of what Qigong was all about, and then meditation, and that was to relax and just create calmness and that, so now I use Qigong and meditation when I need it and I've got the benefit of having done it for, you know, 25 years.

And I can, I'll come home if I, you've had a busy day or a stressful day and I know that I just need to readjust and I can readjust, I use it as a tool, actually, I use it as a tool just to readjust my thinking, readjust how I'm looking at things and just can't calm the body down. So it's a great tool, I say, there's a thing that I've got in my back pocket when I need it, then relay neck to the work life balance during the real stressful times.

That's the type of thing that I could do to bounce back. Because I could be like, I can't take this anymore. Like I'm delving into too much going on my head spinning, I'm out of state, you'd come home or just socially, it's very hard to come home, when you're around, you've been operating as making the decision, bang, bang, bang, and then you come home, and your partner or your family is sitting, sitting around talking, and they're talking about mundane things, and you're thinking, I can't get interested in this.

That's not their fault. That's my fault and I learned that, yeah, I would, if I came home with that attitude, I just take myself aside, put myself in the room, do some meditation, and come out and all of a sudden, I'm looking at life a little bit differently.

It's fantastic all that insight you've shared with us, I'm just thinking of all the key points that you've raised and, you know, certainly one of the highlights of what you just spoke about was really looking within and listening and that's, you know, to go and really helped you with that meditation really helped you with that and, as you said that, you know, the science is really emerging about the benefits, and it's starting to become more profound, or, you know, more widely spread in terms of its use, you know, you mentioned that thing of connecting with your body, you know, like, so your instinct was driving you for this hard training session.

Anthony Hartcher 23:01
But when you look within, you're thinking, I don't really have the energy for this hard training session and this is where your mentors and everyone guided you to say go with your intuition, do that softer training session, it's going to benefit you and I think you this self discovery session of working out when to do a hard session, when to do a soft session and going with that has really brought out this optimal productivity that you know, and there's ways to bounce back, as you mentioned, in terms of resilience, because when you're down, you may need in our hearts, you know, he might that hard session may just shock it, you know, shock the system and, and knock out, you know, I guess change that state that you're in, or you might be so down that he just need to do that softer meditation to rejuvenate.

And there's some science that's come out you've probably I don't know if you've heard about this heart rate variability but these devices so you can get such as the aura ring. And these are ways in which you know, that essentially measuring your heart rate and what it's telling you is your readiness based on I guess how your body is responding to outside stimulus.

And so when you're super stressed, your body's very constantly in terms of a higher state of I guess that that heightened response so you're not breathing deeply your heart's racing, and it's very consistent.

There's not much variability can't really respond well to the environment yet, but when you're really ready, your body responds to the stimulus from the environment quite immediately because it goes to find like it's not stuck in that stress state. It can easily move to the relax or the stress state based on the need and I really thought you know, What you've self discovered are sort of coming out and that science

Gary Jubelin 25:04
is self discovery and it's interesting watching the journey, because before when I was doing that people going arts or hippie dipshit stuff, what's he talking about that and now, as you just raised, it's the science behind it and I, like I've done meditation retreats in the poor, that set there with sound healing.

Yeah, ball on my head, and the sound vibration and all that and it's amazing. Yeah, one retreat I went to, I don't think I've ever been so relaxing on all my life and I'd get up and do my hard training, I did my boxing training in the morning, and then sit and meditate and chant and all sorts of things but if you open your mind up to it, and it really is discovering what your body's capable of, and knowing your body, and I think that's a that's a big point.

And another if, yeah, I don't like to say advice, but just things I've I've observed is that I would have friends come up to me and, and with good intent and say, You're fit, I want you to get me fit, let's do this and they start their own fitness program and they'd be running five kilometers a day right from the start and then they'd be doing weights and they'd be doing this and be doing that and I'd watch and go, guys, just slow down, Moderation, start off where you're capable. So it might be running for 20 minutes, just work up a sweat and that instead of starting this, because I watched them, they lost about six weeks ago. This is great, that's great and then they stop.

So the other thing that I do is that even if I don't feel like doing training, I call it maintenance, I just maintain a level so I don't let my fitness drop or my health go down. So it might be a lazy training session and but I'll just go through the motions, but I do it because I've just ticked it over, and then what I've also found is that if I get myself to fit, and I go through cycles, where I'm feeling strong, I'm feeling fit and healthy.

But I can't maintain that for a long time. So I then let myself drop down a little bit and then have something to do something to aim for I boxing is another thing that I really enjoy and people can't quite work it out when you say okay, but like like sitting and meditating, but they also like getting in the ring and sometimes when I'm really stressed, it's amazing.

You can think you've got the world's biggest problems but when you're staring at someone trying to knock your lights out or kick you in the head, standing opposite you. It's amazing how you just let all the other things go and sometimes I need that. But sometimes, yeah, I'm going to go in the boxing ring, I'm going to jump in with someone that's better than me and I'm going to get told that it's going to help me just to get what my issues were or concerns were.

So that's another thing that's, that's very good. I know and just on a personal thing, I had a couple of charity fights in the last year or so and the police legacy, and preparing for the boxing near I was going through some stressful times at that point in time, but it was a reality and I wasn't doing the soft training, and I was like I had to get myself five ready. So I was really doing some hard hard training, but that helped me also but then after I finished that, then I would okay, I've got a body. I've just held it together to get into the ring and do what I wanted to do and now I've got to heal my body with the injuries that I've been carrying because you have to get yourself a tight fit type thing.

One thing and I don't listen to my own advice is I shouldn't stretch more. I did a lot of Bikram yoga, that's hot yoga, which doesn't sort of from my point of view doesn't feel the philosophical side of yoga, like there's different types of the types of yoga but I definitely saw the benefit with stretching in a hot environment, and I sweat so much. It's embarrassing and I've trained in some gyms and people wanted to do study studies on me how I sweat, but I've found out in the research is that it's quite efficient like I can switch very easily I start running or just do one round and I'm sweating.

But that's the body's body's way of cooling, cooling itself down and another thing and these are all things that work for me. I've got an I lived in an apartment that had a steam room and for eight years and I'd have a steam session after most training in the pool to have it hot and then dive into a cold pool. I moved out of that place but I've now got my own electronic sauna and after most training sessions Oh, I'll spend half an hour in the sauna and then cold share the cold swim afterward and that makes me feel good too and that helps a little like some pains you get in your body as you get older.

That's all fantastic tips. There's one that I wanted to touch on from earlier, and it was that one of letting go. So, you know, you've mentioned, you know, there's, there's a persona out there that go jubilance, the tough guy, he looks at really bad guys, he can fight in the boxing ring. You know, he's, he's a hardcore guy, but certainly, you know, what I've seen is the other side of Gary Jubelin and I think all men have this persona, or, you know, this mask that, you know, we carry through society, and it's, it hasn't served me in mental it mentally, well, in a sense that we try to hold this persona for as long as we can.

Anthony Hartcher 30:46
But deep down, there is a softer side of us, and we're not prepared to show that but you've obviously gone on this journey and, you know, you've caught flak from colleagues and eyes going, you know, off to do this soft meditation and, you know, he's not as tough as what he shows or whatever but is there any psyche or any approach or attitude that you talk towards? showing the true Gary Jubelin? And in terms of revealing your true self and being comfortable with that, is there anything you could share with me.

Gary Jubelin 31:19
I think the persona of tough guys comes from fear that a lot of times when people are presenting, you don't mess with me, you're gonna mock you up, but I think that's to almost a shield and what I found with martial arts and boxing, that I've been turned up by some really small, scrawny looking people that can just beat the crap out of me.

So I realized that there's a little bit more to this, this toughness side of it, and some of the toughest guys that I know and yeah, they might be on the wrong side of the law. They might be police officers, or yeah, all sorts of things. Yeah, Special Forces guys. They're comfortable with showing their emotions because they're not they don't have to pretend I know that if shit goes down.

I can look after myself so I don't feel threatened or challenged I don't if someone has a go at me, I can walk away from it. Then you hear these said a lot like, people say, Why are you training juvenile delinquents in boxing all that because it just makes them more dangerous but what I've seen over the years watching people that come through gyms and martial arts Dojo is that it takes that need to present as a tough guy away, and they find peace and calmness from the fact that I know I can look after myself, but I don't have to show up every day.

And so I think that's the journey I've been on and Ying and Yang and yeah, I'm surprised we've got so far into this and I haven't talked about that because if someone had asked me a philosophy of life, not a religion, but a philosophy, it's in the yin and yang, and that you can have your hard training, but you need your soft training, and in the soft training, there's some hardness and in the hard training, there's some softness, all that, like you watch a boxer, the good skill boxer, how relaxed they are, and it's not this, I'm gonna do this, that might hold you.

Yeah, you might beat someone, but you probably beat that person anyway, because you're physically stronger or aggressive but you watch the good boxer or martial artists, there's a calmness about them, there's a looseness about them and they, they're skilled, they know that they don't have to fight everything that way. It can be more of a peaceful way and using your brain and I spent some time over in over in Perth and I didn't know a lot of people, their ex-wife lived over there. So I spent some time living over there and you go to a new city and it's hard to meet people when you're not working and that but I saw that trade on traded on my physicality and went to a boxing gym and got some friendships here.

Yeah, there was some really tough though professional boxers and there were some really tough guys there but I could sit down and have a genuine conversation about their emotions about how they feeling and all that and that really impressed me and when I was over there I also trained in martial arts Choorli foot because I was doing some training over here in Chinatown, and the lineage passed over there.

I am by no means a best martial artist, but it was good because I was training in a school with a majority of them were around the Chinese and the younger than me and we used to spar and I'd come home just completely beat up by a little guy that could kick me in the head and slap me around.

I'd come home and just catch up on all my injuries, but it was great for me. It was great for me I enjoyed it and that something that tells you not to take yourself too seriously and there were times when I'd be training under a CFO, and I'd be really stressed and the further I got up in the police, I'm making decisions.

So I'm the decision maker, I'm going you do this, you do that I'm bossing people around. And I turn up at the gym, and it's a, what do you want to do? And I say, You just told me what to do and I like to be in that by likes, taking that step away, instead of being the leader, being a follower and that nourish me too.

Because I think sometimes, and you see this with people they get, and I think they bring it home to their home life as well, on the boss at work. I'm going to be the boss at home. What I found and again, that balance, I love being the subservient person I naturally, yeah, I think I, yeah, opinionated people might say other things. But I do tend to lead in environments. But what I find really refreshing is when I know I'm that far out of my depth, I just need I just want to follow, and that recharges me as well.

Yeah, so you're willing to show that vulnerability that, you know, I'm not mister No at all, or, you know, not 100% Tap Mr. Tough guy in all situations you're prepared to, as you said, be that more than a servant, as opposed to knowing to be that, that constant feeling that you need to lead everything.

Anthony Hartcher 36:17
So that and that really goes to show that you prepared to show that vulnerability that hasn't got all the answers, you know, I need a team I need, you know, I need a partner, you know, and I need someone, someone else to fill in this area that either, you know, don't have the competency in, and hence you got the synergistic outcome between yourself and them because you're working as a team and, and I was just wanting to just touch on, you know, you've led teams, large teams of detectives, and solve major crime cases, and you can't do that as a solo, you know, leader or, you know, you, it actually requires everyone putting in and doing their best and, and working together for a common outcome.

So I'm really keen to get some of your leadership tips on you know because there's certainly listeners here that are in a career and in a leadership position. So really keen to hear your thoughts on leaders.

Gary Jubelin 37:16
I think it's a really interesting, interesting subject and the health and the physical side of it plays a part in that too, because you've got to be comfortable. I think the worst leaders, the ones that don't listen to people, yeah, you've got to listen, listen to people, and that is a team environment.

People I think, are shocked when they meet me because there's a persona that this arrogance is the confidence that comes across my public life when I was in the police, or what the public identified with me, I had to be on song. I couldn't show weakness, that when I when I'm going after a crawl, you're not gonna see weakness on me. My kids used to Jake, we've never seen your smile on TV, or whatever, but I'm not gonna smile when I'm talking about I'm coming after you a killer or whatever I had gained Gameface on.

So people thought there was this arrogance and with arrogance, is this confidence that I know everything that I know what the what I'm doing, I needed to rely on people and this is a quite an interesting, interesting aspect because people are often asked me, How did I cope with all the stress associated with it, you could diminish that stress greatly if you share that with your team and in that we're all in this together.

So I've worked with some good teams, I've worked with some bad teams. But when I'm working with a good team, nothing was too big for me as in, for me, if I was sitting there as a boss, I had to make the final decision by having input from all those people that I respected and finding, finding that I think as a boss to that's important in running a team to acknowledge you don't know the answers, and I'd have briefings and that I used to get ridiculed by people within my own organization, because the amount of briefings I'd have, and people make comments behind the back.

He just likes to hear his own voice, blah, blah, blah. They missed the point entirely. A briefing was you bring all the skill set of people there and have Junior police and I joke, sometimes that briefings, You go around the room, I might be coordinating the briefing, but you go around the room and you'd be asking questions. It might be some obscure person sitting there in the back of the room, the most junior police officer and say, Hey, boss, have you considered blah, blah, blah and that might be the best idea and the beauty of Team harmony, then if you acknowledge that as their idea, they then become invested in it because sometimes people you know, there's lazy cops. Surprise, surprise.

The way I would try to get the most out of them is to make them feel like they're part of the team and they're contributing I learned some from some great leaders and I was really fortunate, that one because I worked worksite closely with was Paul Paul Jacob and he was sort of taught me the ropes in a homicide investigation.

But he was very inclusive away the way that he included everyone in the team. So everyone felt important. Yeah, if he knew people's names, that type of thing. I think that's important.

On that's all the positive side of teams, what I've been, I've been called out a couple of times on this. If someone's motivated to disrupt the team, the impact that they can have, it surprises me, and I've had teams that have been disrupted by people that I've got no respect for whatsoever, but their sole motivation, why I'm focused on all the rest of the team is focused on solving the job was just to cause dissent and disharmony and I occurred, and I won't name the Strikeforce but that occurred about 10 years ago, and I made a promise to myself or longer made a promise to myself if ever I see that type of disloyalty and disharmony? I know, yeah, they say one rotten apple can spoil the crate or whatever, I'm going to cut that person out, I'm not going to have that.

I've made a mistake down the track where I sort of turn a blind eye to someone that I don't quite trust, and I should have addressed it. What's happened with me with the police and it's funny because people think out Well, that's all happened because he's just so aggressive and he's gone at this go at that.

People said, have I learned anything from it? This might come as a surprise but yeah, what I've learned, if I had it over again, I'd go harder. I would, yeah, where I giving someone the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt, I'd say you're not part of this team, you're not contributing go and suffer the consequences there, but yeah, there's a place for empathy.

And I talked, I did an article for a book on leadership, a chapter in a book about leadership and the thing that I stress the most was empathy is important as a leader, that your career is just as important as the most junior person in there like everyone's trying to make a life for themselves and so if you've got empathy, I think that's a good trait to have in leadership, and that's what I tried to bring to leadership but it is a complicated thing, and I learned on every job that I ran, and homicide was interesting because it's almost like leadership on steroids because it's, you're making some big decisions, and they can blow up in your face and so it's an interesting area to learn leadership and I think that's what you see in the military forces, like, there's no more important leadership than if you're leading someone in the war zone or whatever.

So that's where I think, yeah, there are some, some good leaders, and I've been fortunate to work under some good leaders, and I take a little piece from them, and, and try to adopt it in, in my environment.

Fantastic tips. So, you know, I, I've learned so much just listening to you and in particularly how you mentioned, you know, you had this huge amount of stress, or you felt it, you know, in terms of solving this crime, but you'd share it with the team and you treated everyone is equal in terms of equal input your lessons, you had that openness about you.

Anthony Hartcher 43:20
So you know, you came to the team, I don't have all the answers I rely on you guys, you're just as important as me in this team to solving this crime, and it brought out the best in them and the fact that you know, you had empathy for team members and then, you know, you touched on that point that, you know, there's people within teams that are self motivated self interest, and not thinking in the best interest of the team and they're always best to remove from the team and, you know, see that throughout life don't you.

Gary Jubelin 43:49
I was surprised how much damage they could do and maybe it's my ignorance or arrogance, whatever you want to call it. I'm thinking this person is such a, you know, a person that's disrupted, not interested, how could he wreck a cohesive team, but they're capable of doing it, and yeah, it's, it's disappointing.

I think we've teamwork too. It's taking that stress away by sharing it, then it's important that they share the stress of taking the stress away by sharing the hard decisions. It's important that the team get to get to celebrate the successes and the way that I lead teams, and this is what I learned because basically, there's a filtering system.

By the time you get to homicide you should be having highly motivated people in that, in that command, they've worked their way up and so we were given a lot of freedom when I was a young homicide detective because people Yeah, the boss wasn't it didn't sort of been the nonbinding off knowing that we were putting time in.

But that works if you've got highly motivated people. If you got people that have got other motivations on what they want to achieve at work, you can come unstuck with that you put trust in people and sometimes they can let that let their trust down but it's fascinating leadership I do, I do find that interesting, I would be taking it back to fitness as well.

Some of the teams I work with, I had the best report going with that we all train together, and they would come in and I go bring your training gear in tomorrow and they go, can we try and I go, Yeah, because if we're, if we're on the job, and we're out for 24 hours, I want to know that you're fit or if we're coming up against someone where it might get physical, I want to know that you're capable, and you can look after yourself.

So I've got no problems with your training, some people really embrace it and that created a good harmony and it also breaks down the barrier between the roles that you've got in in the place, like, yeah, the senior counsel will come in and bash the inspector early if you're boxing, and we do some boxing and stuff like that, but that felt good team harmony, and you can really see the character of a person if they've been pushed physically and that's, that's very evident that you can see the type of person that person is if they're up against that physically.

So I enjoyed that aspect of it too and I really tried to, you know, encourage anyone in the place that if they wanted to try and one more on off duty, I've got no problems with that they got to be ready to respond, if need be but that I did a short stint in the tactical policing and I couldn't believe how good that was. That was, you have to be ready and this was with the Tactical Operations Unit ready to respond if an incident happened.

So you had to have your weapons in the car ready to go but they would encourage, it was almost part of the job, go down and train, and I'm thinking this is good. You're, you're getting paid to train. So

Anthony Hartcher 46:58
I think it's great that you've taken that into the workplace that that attitude of making sure your workers are healthy, that you know they're able to well, it's also you've introduced a form of team bonding, isn't it? Because you do through that training together see that? Other people another? On another side of them, I spoke about vulnerability? And you get to see that yeah, this Chief Inspector, he may be at the top of the pecking order, but I sure I could I can match him in the boxing ring or I can and so it does, it creates that self belief and self confidence that you know, I have abilities that they don't have and it also vice versa, it's showing that it's humbling the other person thinking, well, I took this guy for granted, I didn't think you'd be so great in the ring and he's really showing me up, and you've mentioned that a number of times of taking on smaller fighters, but you know, you've respected their ability and it's made you better, hasn't it makes you better.

Gary Jubelin 47:57
And I think it's you get to that point where and you talked about tough guys showing emotion and oh, well, like there's nothing wrong with saying, Yeah, and I would show emotion with the victims when I'm dealing with the victims. And there'd be other cops sort of standing back down.

Yeah and I'd be genuine. Like, it's not a big impulse on anyone to give someone that's lost a loved one a cuddle? Yeah, it's, yeah, just showing human genuine human kindness. I never made the mistake.

Like we're not social workers like we're there too, and yeah, if the families if you ask the victims families, what they want from a detective, they want the hardest homicide detective, find out who killed their loved one, nothing more, nothing less. That's what they want but that means so much when they can see that you are genuinely invested and have that genuine emotional connection to the families and understand their suffering.

And one of the things that I would say to junior police if I was lecturing or talking to treat victims away, you'd want your family treated, and when you're talking that homicide, you're talking probably the worst experience someone's going to have in their life where their loved one has been murdered, and treat them the way that you would want to treat your own family treated that and I yeah, I always if I'm dealing with families, here's my phone number. Call me anytime and yeah, that came back to bite me time and time again and to be on a Sunday afternoon or late at night or whatever.

But I couldn't look at myself in the mirror. If I didn't offer that out to the families like I'm the person that's meant to be solving who's murdered their loved one? Well, they've got to have access to me so that was just a small price to pay and I think it was the right thing to do.

Absolutely and there's that old saying that people don't care how much you know, or your ability until they understand how much you care. You know?

That's a good, very good sign.

And I think that's certainly something that you've displayed throughout your career. You In terms of that empathy that care, that humbleness, it's incredible. Gary and you've shared so much insight, you know, really, it's really been profound for me a great learning experience. Is there any, you know, you've achieved so many feats throughout your career ad I know you're so humble, you're adding knowledge that but you know, for an outsider like yourself, it's incredibly, you know, you've done incredible things. Is there anything that stands out the most to you throughout your career? Or? Or maybe it's something that's been the biggest learning experience, you did mention one in terms of, you know, not, you know, that that trust for everyone equally?

Anthony Hartcher 50:38
And then you're thinking, you know, I don't know whether I should have trusted that guy so much because he really let me down or let the team down? Is there anything that really stands out if you reflect back on your career,

Gary Jubelin 50:49
A couple of things that I learned a lot from the bearable investigation, that was three Aboriginal kids that were murdered in the early 90s, in the township of bearable by a serial killer and I got bought into that, Five years after the murders. to head up the investigation, there was a lot of racism involved in the initial part.

Yeah, still, to this day they weren't given the proper resources but I've been working with those families for 25 years, and am still in touch with them on a virtually weekly basis. Even since I've left the place. They taught me so much. They, they taught me a lot about racism. They taught me a lot about acceptance of, you know, within the community, they were people that were failing at different things, but they love their family for who they were so that they weren't judgmental, and I learned so much from the families in that regards.

The other thing that I've learned in my career is the way people deal with adversity. And, yeah, I find the inspiration, people say I've given a lot to the victims, I've found the inspiration from the victims, the way that they've conducted themselves with dignity. Whereas Yeah, the sign if that happened to my child, I do this or that.

People are more dignified than that when it really, really happens and I've learned so much from them. So I just feel thankful. You talk about my successes and then I'm a little bit confused about the whole situation, like, basically, all I did was a cop and I work the way that I think you should as placement and my circumstance, I've been overwhelmed by the support and it's humbling and it's almost like I feel like imposter syndrome, like people saying, you know, I've done good with this and I feel that I've only done what anyone would do in the circumstances that I was presented with, with the investigations I've led.

So I've got, I've got no regrets about the way I've conducted myself, I, I couldn't take an easier path in life and I say this to people, too than if we're talking life philosophies in that. I say a lot of people that look at life and think, Oh, I'll take the easy path, and the ones that take the easy path tend to be the ones that become jealous and I think Jealousy is a real curse, where I like to share if there's someone I care for, I share it their success is more important to me than my own success and I really don't like the jealousy gene that comes out in certain people and invariably, if they looked at themselves, we've all got choices to make in life and sometimes they've made the choices that haven't worked for them.

Then they become bitter and twisted, and I don't want to be bitter and twisted and I, I say that I've got over what the police have done to me and I have Jake and say, Oh, now it's the best thing that's happened to me and then the other side of me thinking stuff that blah, blah, blah, but I'm just getting on with life. I'm enjoying life, and I've got a passion for life and I think if you lose your passion, I don't. I feel that I stay. Yeah, I've tried to maintain my physical health.

So I can maintain my mental health, and one thing that just reminded me with martial arts, I was confused about. Yeah, it was such a philosophical, one of the styles I was doing was very philosophical, but it was also very physical and I asked a sifu what said about and he made the point that stuck with me that you look at people that don't train and just they walk around like this.

They're hunched over there, they're just, they're not healthy. You can tell the way they carry themselves, their physical way that they present themselves impacts on their mental outlook and that sort of made me think about it and I think, yeah, well, if I'm really stressed, and I'm just really down, I'm just looking at things in a narrow, narrow view but when I'm feeling healthy and fit In energetic, my mental side of things, I'm looking at the world or looking at things on a bigger scale and I think that's an interesting connection between mental health and physical well being and that's why physical training, I think it's so helpful for mental health because I don't know about you, but I know if I've done a good session where I know I've really put in and the endorphins have kicked in and all wet.

It's hard to be depressed, isn't it? You're feeling good about yourself? You think? Yeah, I'm, I'm on the on my game at the moment. So I yeah, if people are suffering from mental health, and yeah, if you can experience that and get out there and just do something that invigorates your challenges you and all that, I think that can change your outlook on life.

Anthony Hartcher 55:48
More great words of wisdom. Gary, I really, really,

Gary Jubelin 55:52
I wish I could listen to my own advice. Sometimes. I think it's always a work in progress, isn't it?

Anthony Hartcher 55:58
Well, in you touched on so many key points, you know, you've spoken about working progress starting small, you know, you've spoken about, you know, leading by example, getting in there with the team showing that you know, you're in there working with them towards a common outcome.

There's just so many gems and either likes for me that the whole podcast has been a real highlight and a great learning experience for me in terms of what you've shared. So it's magic and I'm thinking that the listeners, you've probably certainly arouse them in a positive sense in terms of their outlook, and how to look at leadership, how to look at their mental and physical health.

How can you know, you've got some books out there, you've got your podcasts that's running, I catch killers, same as the autobiography as I catch killers. How else can people follow you? And, you know, I guess to get more words of wisdom from Gary.

Gary Jubelin 56:55
I think with the podcast, and the book and the book was, you know, it was confronting writing but it was also cathartic in that, you know, this is the way that I look at, look at things, but with the podcasts, what I'm getting from the podcasts, and I'm sure you're experiencing the same things when you sit down, you've got to actually have a conversation with people, that it's amazing what you can take away from that and you're getting insights and that so yeah, getting more of me, I'm not sure I'd get sick of myself, I hear myself on radio, so many times, I, I turn it off, but look, the podcasts, the book, all that I'm out there, and I've got to accept that it's part of what I do now, for a living is on now out in the public.

And I am trying to embrace this with the same passion that I have with policing. And the other thing is, you got to enjoy yourself too and I sort of laugh at the way my life has turned out now like an author, like, Yeah, I wish I paid more attention in, in high school when I was doing English, things like that. running or doing a podcast. Yeah, I'm still caught up in my mind. I'm just still a cop battling along trying to do the best.

So I'm embracing what the world's offered up to me but my parting word of thoughts on life, you get out of it, what you put into it and I've got results, the things that I've enjoyed the most of the things that I've had the work hardest for. If anything comes too easy to you devalues it, when you've you've got to put the effort in and you get the reward. That's where it sort of makes me feel good and makes me feel like it's all worthwhile.

Anthony Hartcher 58:41
Absolutely and I loved how you touched on those words that Steve Jobs also resonated with was follow your heart and you'll look back and then you'll see the connections but just follow wherever your heart takes you to follow your passions. You'll That way you'll bring out it'll bring out the best in you and you'll put the work in, won't you if you're doing something you're passionate about, just like you have in everything you've, you've pursued.

So yeah, I love those concluding words, Gary, and I just want to thank you so much for your time and I'm sure the listeners are really grateful to have you share all your life lessons, your words on physical and mental health, and listeners if you liked the episode, please like and share it with others so we can get more of these great life lessons that Gary's imparted with others, and so that they can grow as a human and become better human so that we have a better society.

So stay tuned for more insightful episodes of Me&My health up. Thank you.

Gary Jubelin 59:38
Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai