Have you ever wondered how to support men with their mental health concerns?
In this episode of me&my health up, our special guest Pete Shmigel (former CEO of Lifeline Australia) tackles men's mental health and covers his learning from his son's experience. He highlights how differently men communicate regarding their emotions and behaviours.
About Pete Shmigel
Pete Shmigel, currently Public Relations Director for the Australian Federation of Ukrainian Organisations and has over 25 years of experience in environmental sustainability, politics, business, consulting, journalism, mental health and Ukrainian affairs.
Pete has served as CEO of Australian Council of Recycling, Lifeline Australia, the Buy Recycled Business Alliance, and the Beverage Industry Environment Council, and in senior roles with Telstra, Veolia, pollster Crosby|Textor, and his own 40 person sustainability consulting business.
Pete has been a senior advisor to eight Premiers, Leaders of the Opposition, or Ministers in Australia and Ukraine.
Pete voluntarily serves on several NGO boards in the health and wellbeing sphere, and is a founder of Lifeline in Ukraine.
Pete is an appointed Member of the NSW Mental Health Review Tribunal
Pete’s written work has been published by all of Australia’s major newspapers, and he has won two literary awards for short fiction.
Pete owns and operates several SMEs, including Revolve Recycling, Australia’s first platform for bicycle recycling.
He was born and raised in New York City to Ukrainian refugee parents and has very, very proudly called Australia home for more than 30 years.
Connect with Pete Shmigel Email: peter.shmigel@me.com
me&my Health Up seeks to enhance and enlighten the wellbeing of others. Host Anthony Hartcher is the CEO of me&my wellness which provides holistic health solutions using food is medicine, combined with a holistic, balanced, lifestyle approach. Anthony holds three bachelor's degrees in Complementary Medicine; Nutrition and Dietetic Medicine; and Chemical Engineering.
Podcast Disclaimer Any information, advice, opinions or statements within it do not constitute medical, health care or other professional advice, and are provided for general information purposes only. All care is taken in the preparation of the information in this Podcast. [Connected Wellness Pty Ltd] operating under the brand of “me&my health up”..click here for more
Are you okay? Are you really okay? Yes, that's today's topic on me and my health up. It's not you are okay it is mental health. And in particularly, we're focusing on men's mental health, because it's not in a great state, given that 75% of suicides is man. So we're going to be talking about men's mental health. And we have a great special guest today on the show, Pete Shmigel. So Pete Shmigel is the former CEO of Lifeline Australia. And he established Lifeline in the Ukraine from where he's roots originated, and furthermore, he is appointed member on the New South Wales Mental Health Review Tribunal. And beyond that, Pete runs a recycling of bikes company, which is really fast growing company where he reuses all Abaqus, essentially, and he also has a sustainability consulting business. And he furthermore, he's been the adviser to eight premiers, and also opposition leaders, is very involved with politics, and has also been a journalist in the Ukraine on the front line. So Peter is a man of many talents. He's a wonderful guy, and also an amazing father. He's about to become a grandfather. So without much further ado, I'd love to welcome you into the discussion I'm having with Pete Shmigel on men's mental health. Welcome on the show, Pete Shmigel, how are you today?
Pete Shmigel:
I'm really well, thank you, Anthony.
Anthony Hartcher:
It's such an honor to have you as your credentials in mental health speak volumes in terms of your your interest. And so I know that me and my health up listeners are very interested in mental health. And the episodes I've recorded on mental health, including the episode with my dad, we spoke about resilience has been, you know, far reached and lots of downloads. So really excited to have you on, given your connection with my father and how I've been introduced to you. And certainly your backstory around mental health is something the listeners would love to hear about and how you have ended up being so involved with mental health.
Pete Shmigel:
Yeah. Well, Anthony, thanks for having me on. First and foremost, it's a real pleasure, and always important to talk about emotional issues and psychological issues and mental health issues. And I find particularly from a male perspective, and I do think there is a male perspective. But for us, there's lots of hats that I've had the honor to wear, whether it's lifeline Australia CO are on the board of of good mental health organizations like the Australian Mental Health Foundation, or rose in the ocean, which is concerned about suicide prevention. And I had a chance to be involved in founding lifeline in Ukraine based on these on the Australian model. But you know, what, it's it's not the hats that matter. It's, it's what we've learned through life. And for me and my family, we've had our ups and downs, my son, Tim was a great student, great athlete, and very polite guy and, and all of that mask back that he was really struggling with his mental health, Tim had very, very dark periods of his life, he spent a lot of time in the public health system and elsewhere, and we learned a lot about ourselves too, and the need to listen, in particular for good mental health results to listen without judgment. And at least for us, that's been part of a big journey. And that journey actually kind of culminated when Tim became the second Australian in history, to walk from Wilson's prom to Cape York 6500 kilometers. He called it everyday steps. And it was, it was a fundraiser for lifeline which I was running at the time. But more importantly, it was kind of Tim's graduation ceremony, having never finished high school. It was his kind of way of saying, I'm back in the world, and well, and others can follow in these footsteps, you know, maybe not literally, but that that mental illness is something that we can deal with, and we can manage and we can move forward in life with.
Anthony Hartcher:
the myth that God challenged in our own experience. And there's a myth that basically men don't talk about their emotions. And I actually think that's a kind of dangerous myth, because men actually do communicate about their emotions. But what I had to learn and I think more and more people in the community and society are learning is that men communicate very differently about their emotions, you know, they may not use words like I'm feeling sad, or I think I'm depressed or, geez, I'm feeling really anxious, they may not use those kinds of acceptable terminology, but they will all different verbal clues and different physical clues be saying exactly all those same things like I've got the shifts, or that really pissed me off, or, you know, one of the classic ones I talked about Anthony's, how men at barbecues, always stand around the barbecue, and they talk and they talk and they talk and they talk, and they never look at each other, they stand shoulder to shoulder looking at the barbecue. And there's just nothing wrong with that, you know, I think that one of the things that we learned is that men in my, in my case, my son, talk differently about their emotions, and that we have to as a society, and I had to, as a parent, just get better at kind of following the clues and actually really understanding what's going on there. And not just listening, but really respecting what was being said. Yeah, so
Pete Shmigel:
I think that's a big part of, of the mental health journey is just, you know, respecting where people are at, you know, and not trying to change them not trying to give them advice that try to give them silver bullets, just respect where they're at and support them in the way that you can at the time.
Anthony Hartcher:
Yeah, so the the cues that you found was really looking out for that expression of anger or frustration, that irritability as sort of key signs amongst men as to something's not quite right. And,
Pete Shmigel:
you know, so because, again, men communicate differently, they don't necessarily communicate verbally, they communicate through their behaviors, so get to personalize it in Tim Tim's case, you know, top level athlete, who suddenly started saying things like, I don't want to go to the state championships. I don't, I don't feel like playing for the first 15 This year, you know, and I gotta say, I was I was off my game is a parent, because I interpret that as kind of like, oh, this is teenage laziness or whatever. And I was, you know, I just wasn't listening and observing keenly enough to say, This guy actually wants a different kind of life, than the one that he's been put into, by his kind of a grade kind of parents are high. So yeah, behaviors, you know, whether you're you might have gone to the pub too much. Whether you make basically isn't turning up for work, whether you might, you know, he's isolating himself a lot. That's a big sign amongst men. It's isolation. Yeah, it's watching out those behaviors and doing more than saying, are you okay? Because, again, men don't quite do that. It's more about saying, you know, what's going on for you, I noticed you haven't been at work for the last three days, etc, etc, etc.
Anthony Hartcher:
So it's recognizing that change of behavior within men, and then essentially, stating that you've observed this change, and how you can support them or how you can best help them.
Pete Shmigel:
Women are brilliant at this, right? Women are brilliant at noticing the changes in their partners and noticing the changes in their in the people around them. They're more attuned to it. I don't know why. But you know, they're much better at holding up the mirror and saying, Well, hang on a second, you've been on the lounge watching sport for days, or the only thing you do around this house is basically stay on your bedding hat. Right. And you know, in the case of many men, they get angry or irritable at it, because that's a that is a very classic male emotion. Anger is okay. But it's really just a peek of an iceberg that says, hang on, there's something else going on here. So yeah, women are terrific at picking the emotion at picking the behaviors. And we'd be doing ourselves a big favor if we often listen to our partners.
Anthony Hartcher:
Very true. So men out there, yeah, check it with the women. Because if they'll notice something, I guess, subtle
Pete Shmigel:
are the ones spending the most amount of time with us for the students of who we are and what were like and stuff like that. So it only goes to, it's only follows to reason that basically they see those shifts. You know, those kind of like deviations from the normal pattern, and often those deviations can indicate, you know, that there's something going on beneath the surface, whether, you know, for men for instance, that lifeline we knew that a lot of the men who were calling our calling about financial problems, they get to that eventually in the conversation gambling was a big reason a lot of men were calling increasing in our society now really sad relationship problems of course, a lot of work related stuff, right? men seem to take a lot of their status comes from their jobs and from their work and if that environment isn't kind of right, settled, yeah, it can be real, it can be real costs but can be a real kind of like button pusher, right?
Anthony Hartcher:
Yeah. Okay. The that sort of going out there earning the money for the family and coming home and making sure there's money for there to support the family essentially,
Pete Shmigel:
Lots of expectations around that and many that men who find themselves in crisis feel that they have somehow let this side down right in that regard and let themselves down as a result too. And you know, that's we don't have we don't have a lot of skills for that society. You know, when when are you taught at school? Or even sometimes by your own parents say, you know, you're gonna fail. Yeah, you're gonna try hard, you're gonna work hard, you're probably make things right, you probably get yourself a good job, you probably set yourself up in a family. But you know, every once in awhile for reasons of your own for reasons outside your control, you're gonna fall flat on your face. Right? And it's not necessarily your fault. It's just, that's the pattern of life. And yet, I don't think unless maybe we, you know, raised in a very church environment, we don't we don't get a sense of those, how those ups and downs are very normal, and we just kind of gotta learn how to accept them, especially as men that we can't all be Superman all the time.
Anthony Hartcher:
Yes, the ebbs and flows in life. And I think women are certainly experiencing that now given their rise in their careers and doing well in, in that career aspect. And so they're now experiencing what, you know, certainly men have been going through for quite some time around those, like, you have those rises in your career, and then you have those moments where it's not so great. And it's but it certainly brings about a lot of learning, when we have those moments, like as that,
Pete Shmigel:
usually cliches are true.And, you know, one of them is that failure is the best teacher and, you know, I would say for myself, you know, my own failure as a parent to be there for my kid when he needed me to be there. You know, at one point in his life was what opened my eyes up a lot to this notion of respectful learn, listening and non judgment and don't give advice unless you're, you're asked to give advice. They need indeed, indigenous language. In Victoria, there's a word called Dadirri and Dadirri is great word. Indigenous languages sometimes are very complex, Dadirri means listening deeply with loving intent. Right? What a great word right? Is that, that you're not thinking about what your answer is going to be? Or what advice you're going to give next or you know, judging why this person is saying this to you or not saying this to you just there for right now. I just think that that's really powerful. And you know, you know, sometimes with your own mates or your own family sometimes when it completely attuned to whatever you're on about and the power that gives you it's it's massive, I mean, call it love i don't know what you call it, but you know, it's it's yeah, it gets you through.
Anthony Hartcher:
So there's there's listeners out there that are parents raising teenage children or even pre adolescence children, what advice or recommendations would you share with these parents? Well, look, benefit from the fact that we have had a near revolution in mental health in the last 20 years, you know, you know, the situation I describing about my son was born 15, 20 years ago. Now, the amount of resources out there now for parents compared to them is wonderful, you know, so it doesn't matter where you go online, you know, from headspace downwards, there is just so much information about you know, observing signs, how to listen appropriately, you know, the, you know, we sometimes always try to think, you know, why does my son or daughter talk to me, most of them the car, right? I didn't see, there's science behind all this even you know, it's a safe, protected environment, and it's very private and, you know, you're in between things, it's not to distract you. So, look, there's tons of tools out there and I think you know, let's use the internet power for good and get to those tools. But But look, at the end of the day, I think it all starts from you know, just an absolute willingness to sacrifice and be there unconditionally for our kids. Really does.
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Anthony Hartcher:
And in terms of for the men out there, you've had a lot of experience through lifeline and being on these advisory boards and white knights. And as you mentioned before, men very much identify themselves around that protector provider and if that's not going well then they feel their self worth is just not there and they lose that identity for the men out there. What would you like to share with them?
Pete Shmigel:
Look, you know, I don't know about you, Anthony, but I am a Jordan Peterson fan. I mean, the guy cops, you know, a great deal of criticism more for his politics and then from hit for him for anything. He doesn't psychology. I mean, you know, I went to see him last time he was in Sydney, spent all of about 10 seconds talking about politics and the other 99.9% of the time, he was just giving very straightforward, common sensical advice based on you know, his long years of research dealing with people in trouble. You know what the two things that he basically says more than anything else, and I swear to God, he's right is sleep enough and eat? Well, you know, and it really starts from that kind of base, you know, if you if you don't have the fundamentals in place of being rested and having the right foods to kind of propel you through the day and stuff like that everything else is not it's not going to work. You know, so I, you know, I think that, you know, the the first and foremost thing that we can do as men is, is just make sure our basics are in order. Right. And, and then once we got those basics in order, that's when we can start thinking more about, you know, all the other things about you know, how do I fill it fill in my mental health bucket? Is it what sport is it with photography isn't with this that the other thing, but get the basics done? Right. And you know, and I applaud your work in that way?
Anthony Hartcher:
Absolutely, it does, it starts with the fundamentals of good health. And we as much as we might want to focus on those micronutrients such as our how are we getting enough magnesium and all these really starts with the basics, as you said, it's the are you just having the right macros, which is the fats, the proteins, the carbohydrates, you know, clean, lean, as they say, and? And then are you getting enough sleep at night? Yeah,
Pete Shmigel:
the world has changed. I mean, even in your lifetime, Anthony that, you know, yeah, I only probably came across discussion about macro foods and things like that macro food groups probably in the last five years. And you look at it and you go, wow, that's, that's just makes so much sense. But it's taken us a long time to get back to these kinds of like, basic kinds of rules and insights about what we put in our gut and what we put in our brain and stuff like that. I think it makes perfect sense to because you know, the world is so complicated now, right? So from the time that you and I woke up in the morning, till now that we're talking, we probably both saw about 3000, communication messages, Billboards, radio ads, et cetera, et cetera. And we learn how to filter all that stuff out, because there's just too much of it. So I think that, you know, keeping it simple, is such a great mantra for modern life. And that's keeping it simple with your diet, keeping it simple with your, with your mental well being keeping it simple with your relationships, just bring it back to the fundamentals.
Anthony Hartcher:
And another one of those fundamentals is relationships. And this that longitudinal study that was still running today in Harvard University, it's around that study of happiness. And that started with the study of men. And the reason why it was manner was just back it started in 1930s. And so and they studied two pools, a man from around the Boston area, Harvard University students, one was JFK. And then the other pool was in the not so well off areas of Boston. And they studied these men through the decades taking blood samples, viewing partners, interviewing family members. And it's really like this collected a huge amount of biochemical data as well as relationship data, as well as that antidotal how you're feeling sort of data. And what they found. One of the conclusions of the studies, even though it's still going today, they're studying the generations of these, of these people that originated in the study was that the men who were most happiest in their 80s had the best relationships in their 50s. Well, and I'm reading a lot today in terms of this relationship issue that men have as they go through the decades. So at school, they've got mates, and they're hanging out with their mates, and you know, the nine to five, or nine to three with their mates. And then they might do some after school sports with their mates. And on weekends, they sort of hanging out. And as they go to university, they go different, different universities or different pathways. And so that friendship sort of dwindles away. And I've certainly noticed that and then they form some friends in university, they're studying the same course and, but then they go off and get different jobs, and they meet a partner. And then I go to different areas. And men generally aren't great at keeping those relationships going. And, and so generally, it falls by the wayside. And as they get into those midlife years, it's very much the female circle of friends that the men have been a part of, and it's just, you know, wondering, through your experience, and, you know, working with these mental health, community services, what can you
Pete Shmigel:
Yeah, know, you're spot on, I think that study makes so much sense to me, it resonates so much that the importance of connection and men's lives right. Now, we talked about before, but you know, isolation is one of those behavioral signs that you know, that things aren't quite gone. Right. So therefore, the opposite is connection, right? To make things go, right. And one of the things that's been really cool over about the last five years is the rise of grassroots based men's groups. So, you know, men are taking responsibility all over the country. I mean, you know, the dudes who organize the picnics in public parks are the guys who organize the bike rides or, you know, some of it has names. Some of it is completely informal, but I think that the men are actually increasingly Doing a great job of taking responsibility for their mental health and their health by saying, I really need to have other male friends in my life, particularly as I get older. So I'm very lucky that way, I'm still in daily contact with nine of the guys that I went to year one with in the United States. But we've been friends for 5354 years, we did our 50th birthdays together. And then I belong to a group called the paramount of hikers. And the paramedic hikers are just a bunch of guys who have gotten to know each other over the last four or five years, from the local parent, community, community, a lot of us involved in business or politics or arts or sport in the paramedic area. And every Saturday morning at 830, we get together for the pike and the pike is this pseudo pretend jog that we do that's really just a slow walk and ends up at a breakfast that went to local cafes. Right? And, and, you know, the main focus always is, you know, who's who's paid this week. And it's actually a really cool name and a really kind of cool system. Because if somebody's paid, let's say for three, four or five weeks in a row, then you start to ask the question, what's going on? Right? behavioral change, right? So look, I think that's so important is this notion of, of men continuing to talk to men, as they get older in particular, and, you know, go back to what we started with men do talk, they just talk differently. And they need places to do that, that are completely dictated by, you know, political correctness or social norms. And you know, and every male that's listening to this knows that, you know, there's this stuff you can say, right? And you know, it sounds awful. If it were an enemy tape recorded or put down on paper and stuff like that, but you know, that it's playful and you know, that it's just the guys having fun with guys. Hopefully, it's not to the detriment of anyone else. And it's not offensive to anyone else. But yeah, sometimes men need to behave like lads a little bit.
Anthony Hartcher:
Yeah, and I've also been reading articles in the area that in terms of how men Connect is through like an activity there's got to be the and that's the paramount of bikers meet and first of the walk. And yeah, and then you have the afterwards you have the breakfast that gathering. Yeah,
Pete Shmigel:
like bicycles. You see bicycles all across the Sydney in New South Wales nowadays, all the guys in the liker and stuff like that. You see them having more coffee than you having vices. But nevertheless, you're right, there has to be that kind of at least that you know, at least 5-10 minutes, whatever that pretext of doing something, Men's Sheds. What a brilliant movement, you know, the old guys getting together and fixing you know, kettles or making pieces of furniture or good in fact, fixing bicycles are part of what I do, you know, what a what a great idea, you know, to have that kind of common activity, you know, we know with our own sons, that, that you know, that it's always easier to connect and talk and, and, and be together when you actually have something to do together, whether it's something handy, or whether it's something sporting, you know, my son and I bushwalking is our thing, right? has been since he was a tiny kid, and I hope it will be with our grandson too. But yeah, activity one thing to reflect on his up until 150 years ago, our lives were based on doing stuff not talking, right. And we were either in a factory doing stuff, or we were in the trades doing stuff, or we were on a farm doing stuff. It's only 150 200 years since that's changed radically where people like you and me can make most of our living by talking. And you got to ask yourself, well, you know, we were doing something for millions and millions of years, and now in the last 150 years, we've changed it completely. It's kind of an impact. Yeah. I think the importance of getting back to doing stuff is really important.
Anthony Hartcher:
Yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned, there's a number of groups you mentioned the Men's Sheds, the Parramatta pikers, the barbecue group that get together and hang around the barbecue and cook the cook snags and whatnot and made up Parks and
Pete Shmigel:
Rec three might actually on the Australian Men's Health Forum website, you have like a whole long list of, of all of these kinds of groups that have popped up around the country now like one of my favorites is, is down in Victoria, it's called halt and we're going to forget what halt means but halt was founded by a group of trainees in regional Victoria, you know, guys who are chippies and painters and sparkies and stuff like that. And they got together and they they said, you know, we spent all these time alone on our on our sites, and we spent all this time alone on our you know, driving from job to job, etc. And they actually kind of noticed amongst themselves so you know, it's quite lonely to be a trainee, sometimes. You and your apprentice if you're doing a small thing, you've got an apprentice and so now they have this really, really cool program where I'm having kind of educated themselves then I would actually go out to like all these kind of light industrial parks, and they do the toolbox talks, you know, they literally grab guides for 1015 minutes at a time while they're doing something in the middle of their jobs and say, Okay, well here's some quick and handy tips etc, etc. So, yeah, men's health isn't going to be solved by anybody but men. We you know, if we want live longer, as long as the women in our lives went have less heart attacks, if we want to reduce the suicide rate, you know, 75% of suicides are male, you know, all of that basically starts with us taking responsibility for our own health and ensure the women in our lives are amazing and beautiful and terrific. But but you know, we actually have to be the ones to take the steps as well.
Anthony Hartcher:
Fantastic final concluding words there. Pete, I really appreciate your time. And I'm sure the listeners have really been, you know, really intrigued with the Insight you've shared around men's mental health and your experience of certainly raising children and making sure you have that safe space. And for children to speak out, I'll certainly include that link that you mentioned in terms of the men's mental health services. I'll include that in the show notes, so the listeners can go directly to there and check it out. And any other words you'd like to pass before we wrap up the episode?
Pete Shmigel:
Be well.
Anthony Hartcher:
Now Nice, nice, just simple. And men are very simple. Very simple. And yeah, as Pete mentioned, throughout the episode is, yeah, we have a different way of communicating shoulder to shoulder just being with one another. And certainly, you know, we feel a bit daunted by the eye contact, and that's the preferred way in which women communicate. So
Pete Shmigel:
thank you for everything that you're doing. You know, I'm really appreciative of of efforts like yours. And you know, I think you're you probably are touching more lives and you know, and it's, it's a credit to you, and it's a credit to your family. So what strikes your arm?
Anthony Hartcher:
So yeah, thanks. Thanks, Pete. And thank you listeners, thank you for tuning in for another insightful episode of me and my health up. Please share it with other men that you know out there could be really beneficial for them. Women, please impart the wisdom from peace and embrace it in your relationships and your race a successful family and have a successful relationship. So thank you listeners, and thank you, Pete.
Pete Shmigel:
Exactly.
Anthony Hartcher:
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